Talk:DBM Power Levels
Please sign your name with either your login or ip. This will make it much easier for me. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:48, January 23, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan I tided the numbers up look as neat and accurate as I can, using your multipliers. First of all: U12 Trunks > U13 Vegeta U12 Trunks was way too low before: In one of the mini comics of Dragon Ball Z Multiverse: (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/strip-30.html). U18 Vegeta joked that U13 Vegeta was half strong as him. I know that it might not be part of the story. But I see that as a reason to not take this line at face value because it's the only thing we have that gives us an idea of where U13 Vegeta stands in comparison to U18 Vegeta powerwise. And considering how strong U18 Vegeta has gotten (stronger than Super Bojack just as just a super saiyan) that would put U13 Vegeta similar in strentgh to Cell Games FP SSJ (more than likely Cell Games Gohan). U13 Vegeta is fairly strong himself, (Well above the 1st Cell Jr). However (U12) USSJ Trunks was still able to somewhat keep up with (U18) SSJ2 Vegeta, even hit and damage him at times. If they (U12 Trunks and U18 Vegeta) would've both fight as just SSJ's the battle would have gone the same. That puts a decisive but but too big gap between U12 Trunks and U13 Vegeta. U12 Trunks is powerful enough to damage U18 Vegeta, but U18 Vegeta would just tank any punches or kicks from his U13 counterpart with because U13 Vegeta is half as strong as U18 Vegeta. A 2x diffrence is a tanking difference, barring big ki blast attacks (Kamehameha, Galick Gun, Special Beam Cannon, Tri Beam, Destructo Disc, Masenko, etc) the fighter that is 2x stronger won't feel a thing. --- I fixed the gap between Andriod 16 and 17 there is a 3-3.5 gap between then. Piccolo (Kami) = 17: Piccolo fired a Light Grenade (an attack 3+x Piccolo's strength or exhausted strength) at Imperfect Cell (Post Humans), and Perfect Cell took it with little to no damage. Cell needs to be at least little stronger than that to not be affected by it. 16 fought evenly with this very same Cell. The gap between Cell and 17 can't be ignored. 16: 2,400,000,000 Cell: 2,400,000,000 Light Grenade: 2,250,000,000 Piccolo (Kami): 750,000,000 / (Tired): 675,000,000 17: 750,000,000 -- Zangya is the strongest of Bojacks henchmen, due to being the apparent leader of the pack after Bojack. She, Bido and Bujin were able to bring down FPSSJ Gohan (movie 9). In order for that to happen at least one of them had to be within the same tier of strength as him. They are weaker than Gohan sure, but at least one of them was powerful enough to give FPSSJ Gohan troubles. When a group of inferior fighters gang up against a superior fighter, it doesn't exactly tend to work very well most the time. So at least one of the three (Zangya, Bido or Bujin), has to be FP SSJ tier, for the 2's help to be enough to knock Gohan down without making use of their immobilization rays. Zangya seems to be the one as she had the best performance against MSSJ Gohan, she deflects Gohan's ki blast and trades blows with him. That not something an ASSJ can do, let alone a weakling like 18. Zangya can probably take down Gohan alone and is at least stronger than a cell jr based on her fight with Gohan (maybe even equaling MSSJ Goku Cell Games). It goes: Base Bojack = MSSJ Gohan >>= Zangya > Cell Jr >= Bido >>= SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Trunks > Bujin >> Kogu. Percentage Gaps: ''' '''100%-96%: Equal or About equal ( = or >= ) 95%-89.5%: Rivaling or'' Slight advantage ( >>= ) ' '''89%- 83%: Moderate advantage ( > ) ' 82.5%-76%: Huge advantage ( >> ) 75%-66%: Decisive Edge ( >>> ) 65%-60%: One shot range or weaker fighter can't see stronger opponents movements ''' '''59%-51%: Weaker fighter's punches aren't very effective 50%-40%: Tanking punches and kicks --- Why Frieza at 150,00,000 you'd ask? well I gave Frieza the power gain from his Mecha body from the Trunks Saga. Frieza at 150,000,000 Cooler at 120,000,000 King Cold at 100,000,000 Seems to beatifully account for the (100,000,000 - 150,000,000) Frieza Tier. - Cooler Asended form: 300,000,000 (2.5x Cooler regular form) King Cold (first suppression): 450,000,000 (4.5x King Cold second suppression) King Cold (true form): 2,250,000,000 (5x King Cold first suppression) --- SSJ Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (beginning of battle) Vegito had the complete advantage at first, it wasn't until Broly strength suddenly doubled that Broly started turning the tide. LSSJ Broly only needs to be > SSJ2 Vegito. U4 Buu only mention that Broly is stronger than SSJ2 near the end of the fight. Not only that but he said "he might have to end this fight" meaning he can likely handle Broly at his current level. LSSJ Broly (End of Fight) doesn't have to be near SSJ3 Vegito, even the tier chart says this. SSJ3 Vegito >> Zen Buu > LSSJ Broly (End of Fight) >> SSJ2 Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (During Fight) and rising >> SSJ Vegito >> LSSJ Broly (BoF) SSJ3 tier-''' Base Broly 'In Between tier- '''Base Vegito '''SSJ4 tier- ' SSJ Broly 'SSJ5 tier- ' LSSJ Broly / SSJ Vegito 'SSJ6 tier- '''SSJ2 Vegito / LSSJ Broly (end) '''Above SSJ6 tier-' SSJ3 Vegito 71.126.140.192 ---- Well Saligir said that being half as strong was an estimate. Still, yours are good. I was just slightly following the tiers list. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:19, January 28, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan Technique mmultiplication is inconsistent in dbz later on. For example, Kaio-ken times 20 kamehameha didn't kill Frieza, if the times forlua applied, it would most likey do much more to frieza. Zendarmanitan (talk) 22:26, January 29, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan *'''You are vastly overrating 17 and 18. I would doubt the present andriods are than 5x SSJ Goku (Namek) tops. Not to mention that the comic is referencing the future andriods. Present Andriods >> Future Andriods was stated. Especially with this DBM storyline stating that 17 and 18 are losing energy, I can't see how 17 or 18 can be in the billions at all . They would have had any trouble with Future Gohan if they were that strong, but they did have trouble which 'even without that losing energy statement impossible I light of that fact. *'To your of the the inconsistancies with ki blast in DBZ, Vegeta vs Recoome is a prime example. but to the KK 20x Goku firing at Kamehameha at 50% Frieza. Frieza used a small energy blast block that beam'. T'he ki amplification concept is still there later in the series. It not like it dissappeared or it was shafted. That scene with Piccolo and Cell was shown for a reason. To establish how much of a powerful freak Imperfect Cell had baecome compared to Piccolo and 17 after absorbing all those humans. More examples is SSJ2 Gohan choosing to counter FP Perfect Cell's Kamehameha with one of his own instead of deflecting it, SSJ Goku blowing up Cell torso or Krillins destructo disc slicing off Frieza's tail. They are many examples of Ki amplification demonstrated.' Still, absorbing some of Piccolo's energy didn't make Cell stronger than Piccolo so I don't understand how thousands of humans could have made him thrice as strong as Piccolo. Zendarmanitan (talk) 02:42, January 31, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan But he did become much stronger from absorbing many humans! The evidence is starring you right in the face! Cell went from being at a clear disadvantage against Piccolo to breaking his neck with one punch, basically beating Piccolo without any effort. That not something Cell belived he was capable of doing after he saw Piccolo regenerate his arm. But after absorbing all those people Cell showed up fully confident in himself and Piccolo had this I'm screwed look on his face.'' ''How can you deny that? ''http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KJKUl7yPso: ''Look at Piccolo's face after Cell goes to full power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp_7WgKolxc: Look at how effortlessly Cell takes Piccolo down. ''' '''There's multifold gap between Piccolo and Cell here. Several things in DBZ doesn't make sense. Gohan's plot device power gains throughout the series when the lazy bum doesn't do Sh** is, IMO at the top of the list. But the fact that Cell got more power from absorbing millions of people than the energy out of Piccolo's arm can't be denied. ' '''And again Cell took Piccolo's Light Grenade without any damage. The Light Grenade is Piccolo's most powerful attack otherwise he would have used The Special Beam Cannon ('a 3x amplifed attack of the users strength, the light is at least slightly superior. ' ''Yes there are a few inconsistancies but most of the time ki amplification is accurately demonstrated. Cell needs to be at least a little bit stronger than Piccolo's attack to recieve no damage from it plain and simple. ' ''And again why is 17 and 18 in the billions? This first question isn't necessarily aimed at you but I still have to ask, seriously what's with this wikis obession with 18 being strong? '' She's an insignificant piece of trash the second Cell arrives. Nothing in the manga supports or remotely hints at her having any sort of relevancy after Piccolo's fight with 17. She may be above Frieza and Android saga Super Saiyan, but I strongly doubt she's any more than 5-6x Frieza. The andriods are not in the billions escepially with a storyline suggesting they are losing power. And if she isn't 6x Frieza, 17 isn't either. ''' '''So, my question directed to you is why 17 and 18 need to be in the the billions? Give me a good reason for that belief. Piccolo deflected Cells special beam canon the first time so does that mean he's 3 times stronger than him? No. Zendarmanitan (talk) 00:32, February 1, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c362/10-1 http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c362/10-2 http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c364/10-1 That anime filler scene doesn't count. He didn't deflect a no Special Beam Canon in the manga, so of course he's not 3 times stronger then Cell. If he could deflect a special beam cannon, why would he be afraid of a Kamehameha? I agree that 18 is not as strong as people think. Zendarmanitan (talk) 03:12, February 1, 2013 (UTC)zendarmanitan Of course she's not. Glad you see that as well. I can actually see Androids with a power level around billions (not something exceeding though). Let's base this on: 18 > 17 = Piccolo (fused with Kami, pre ROSAT) >> SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga) >> Frieza. Frieza had a power level of 120,000,000. And I think it is safe to assume SSJ Vegeta was at lest 3x stronger (after his training is pretty re''asonable.) ''This would place Vegeta with a power level around 360,000,000. Based on what we see on the Piccolo vs 17 fight, I'd say they are both at least 2.5x stronger than Vegeta, placing each one of them with a power level of 900,000,000. Knowing 18 is slightly stronger than 17, by at least 10%-15% (if not the gap between them would be unnoticeable), that would place her with a power level of something around 990,000,000. Those are present androids. Future Androids: as U9 Yamcha stated, the decresing energy is a slow process, so the difference between present and future androids isn't actually really big, around 20% (remember Future Androids were still perfectly able to handle a Super Saiyan). So according to this, I'd place them like this, pretty close to the billion: Android 17 - 900,000,000 Android 18 - 990,000,000 Future Android 17 - 720,000,000 Future Android 18 - 800,000,000 15:16, February 1, 2013 (UTC) '''''I agree somewhat: On your "Andriod saga SSJ Vegeta >>> Frieza (Full Power)" and statement the he 3 times Frieza I have no complaints about that. I agree on that, maybe he's even as much as 4x Mecha Frieza. ''' - '''But I don't agree at all about Piccolo being 2.5x SSJ Vegeta. And it has solely to do with Vegeta's performance against 18. Even after 18 went to force force it was like she was tanking SSJ Vegeta's attacks (and with 2.5x gap, tanking punches and kicks would be easy). 18's gap on SSJ Vegeta was no more than than ASSJ Vegeta's gap on Semi Perfect Cell or SSJ Vegeta gap on Andriod 19 (Post Goku's Energy). All three gaps are roughly 1.5x gaps: ASSJ Vegeta: 7,500,000,000 vs. Semi Cell: 5,000,000,000 Andriod 19 (Post Goku's Energy): 450,000,000 vs. SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 18: 900,000,000 vs. SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 All Vegeta said is that Piccolo's power after fusing with kami is beyond his own as a SSJ. Not that it was 2.5x his. I can easily place the numbers like this and the manga statements stay true. Mecha Frieza: 150,000,000 SSJ Vegeta: 600,000,000 18: 900,000,000 17: 825,000,000 I actually agree on this. According to your conclussion, I think I proved Androids are way more than 5x stronger than Frieza. They are 7.5x stronger minimum. But there's a thing I actually have to say, you placed ASSJ Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell way too high. Imperfect Cell is 3x stronger than 17. So that would place him with a power level of 2,475,000,000. And absorbing 17 made Cell exactly 1.5x stronger, something that would place him with a power level of 3,712,500,000. According to you, ASSJ Vegeta is 1.5x stronger than Semi Perfect Cell, something that would give us an exact power level of 5,568,750,000. Remember Saiyans aren't THAT strong... That's all I have to say, I agree on the rest. 15:24, February 2, 2013 (UTC) This is not me disagree with what you're saying it's just me better explaining my POV on the Cell Saga gaps. If you have any disagreements, please say so. ' '''The I'd rank the main gaps like this: ' '''1. Imperfect Cell (post humans) on Android 17 and Piccolo: ''3x gap '' I think this is the biggest gap in the Cell arc. Not only is Piccolo one shot material for Cell. But Cell tanked a fully charged Light Grenade from Piccolo..not even a scratch. Piccolo's most powerful ki blast is nothing to him. I think at minimum Piccolo's ki amplification here is greater than a Kamehameha from Goku in the Saiyan arc..admittedly that's conjecture but it makes sense judging by him calling Imperfect Cell's KHH "pathetic" . ''' ''--'' '''2. Perfect Cell ("warming up" suppression) on SSJG2 Vegeta: ''2.5x gap '' Another huge gap, Cell tanked Vegeta's full forced kick to the neck and just laughed it off. I rank this gap larger than gap 3 because in my opinion there is also evidence from Cell's assurance in taking on Vegeta's amplified blast (Final Flash) that Cell can take on a Galick Gun from Vegeta, but I say 'take on' and not 'tank' because he clenched his fists and put them out as if he thought he knew he was in for a struggle/had to brace himself. Cell should be aware of Vegeta's amplification abilities from the Saiyan arc and Galick Gun was Vegeta's most powerful attack up until Big Bang and Final Flash which Cell is un aware of. Of course the Final Flash was insanely amplified and Cell realized that a little too late..only when it was released. ''' -- '''3. Semi Cell on Android 16: ''2x gap'' This is also a huge gap, I can't see Android 16 being any more 50% of Semi Cell here. I mean to just tank a punch to the face without so much as even budging? Huge gap here. That is one of the most beastly physical tanks in the serious..it's Brolyesque, lol. ''-- '' 4. SSJ2 Kid Gohan on Perfect Cell (full power):'' 1.6- 1.8x gap IMO ''' This is another large gap..totally ass kick, tank physical attacks, and one-two shot fodder type of gap. Cell goes full power and does a monstrous power up, but Gohan still tanks Cell's sucker punch right to the face. I do notice that Gohan's tank here is less impressive than Semi Cell's on 16, that's why I have it below. Also Gohan chooses to fire back his own Kamehameha against Cell's fully charged Kamehameha instead of just kicking/punting it back like Freeza did to Vegeta for example. In my opinion this suggests at minimum Cell's most amplified blast would be troublesome to Gohan physically and he can in no way counter physically, much less tank. ''' ''-- '' ''5.'''' SSJG2 Vegeta on Semi Cell (full power) = SSj Vegeta on Android 19 (Post SSJ Goku's Energy):'' 1.5x gap''' Another virtual tanking gap. Cell powers up to full power and Trunks and Vegeta note it's a big increase..but Vegeta is unimpressed. Cell charges Vegeta and hits him right in the face, draws small blood, but Vegeta has taken very little damage. Vegeta then beats around Cell effortlessly and tells Cell that finishing him off will be frivolous. It should be noted this gap in the anime is haxed..it's even bigger. Cell fires a (what didn't look to be very amplified) Galick Gun at Vegeta takes 0 damage..which really doesn't even make much sense so I'd throw that out for consistency. ''' '''As far as Android 19 Goku fight vs SSJ Vegeta, it's roughly the size of the gap Super Vegeta had on Semi Cell IMO. Vegeta's tanks were very similar in both fights, Vegeta's lip bleed slightly and his head was pushed back pretty far. Vegeta's blows were hurtful but they didnt show quite the damage Kid Gohan's blows could do to FP Cell for instance. '--' 7. Andriod 18 on SSJ Vegeta: ''' ''For now ''I see it as 1.33-1.4x gap '' After thinking about this gap more I'd have to say Android 18 vs Vegeta was very difficult for me to place. It really all comes down to her effort as well as whether or not you believe she actually tanked a Vegeta's punch. When Vegeta went flying to her she put her knee up which caused Vegeta to cought out blood, at the same time Vegeta punched her and she looked unphased..but I seriously believe all of the force behind Vegeta's punch were taken away by her knee to his stomach. Other than that, she showed no ability at all to one shot Vegeta or anything..so I'd say it's roughly the size, maybe even slightly smaller than the gap Vegeta had on 19 or Semi Cell. ''' ''-- '' '''8. Kamiccolo on Imperfect Cell (pre humans absorbed): '1.2x -1.25x gap' Well this should be a pretty significant gap...but certainly not 1.3x or anything..not tanking physical blows or one or two shot level. Piccolo dodges Cell's Kamehameha so that to me implies Piccolo certainly can't tank it. In the short lived fight, Piccolo shows superiority to Cell, but it's not an ownage. Eventually Cell runs away. Also Android 16 said during the battle between Cell and Piccolo that it was between "two huge powers". But he added that only one of the fighters (Piccolo) rivaled Android 17 and 18. ''' '''by contributer 71.126.140.192: 20:47 February 2, 2013 1. I agree. Piccolo's weakened Light Grenade did not damage Cell at all (and this attack is a 3x amplifier) so 3x is a perfect difference. 2. Around 2x and 2.5x I'd say, but yeah, I can agree with you here. 3. I'd have disagree on this one. Cell is stated to grow 1.5x stronger after absorbing 17. And it makes perfect sense, since being 1.5x stronger is enough to tank a punch. 2x stronger would give us too high further power levels. 4. As you said, this gap isn't as big as the one between 16 and Cell, so according to my previous point, I'd have to say there is a difference of 1.35x-1.4x. 5. I agree, and I'll use this point as example to explain my numbers 3 and 7; as you said, 1.5x is enough to tank and attack or take little to no damage, so Cell being 1.5x stronger than 16 and tanking his attack would make perfect sense. 2x stronger would be excessive in my opinion. And on number 7, you must have in mind that 18 tends to fight suppressing her power. When she actually decided to fight seriously, she compltely dominated Vegeta, who wasn't even able to land a single punch on her (to the point of beng 1.5x stronger or even more, but let's leave it on 1.5x.) 6. You missed number six. Haha. 7. I'd say at least 1.5x is actually correct. She was fighting suppressed, when she decided to fight seriously she complitely dominated Vegeta and even knocked out Trunks with a single hit. Plus also have in mind that the difference between 18 and 17 is around 1.1x-1.15x. If the difference between Vegeta and 18 was around 1.3x-1.4x, 17 (who is weaker than 18), would be actually placed close to Vegeta's level, and he still remains much stronger than him. 8. And I agree on this last one. Nothing to say here. 19:31, February 3, 2013 (UTC) Number 6 was tied for 5th. Vegeta vs. 19 (Goku's Energy) = Semi Perfect Cell vs. ASSJ Vegeta So that would make (Vegeta vs 19) number 6. I put them together because the 2 gaps are the same: (These links prove it) http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/343/13.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/343/14.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/378/12.html http://manga4.com/manga/dragon-ball/378/13.html I should have been clearer on that the first time, I about that. No, I'm pretty sure Vegeta was more surpressed against 19. Zendarmanitan (talk) 00:41, February 5, 2013 (UTC) zendarmanitan Suppressed? He wasn't suppresed in either fight. My eyes tell me that Cell did no better than 19, especially in the manga. The thing is the power advantages Vegeta had over each of them respectfully kinda makes it hard to see that. They both didn't give Vegeta much of a test at all, and he called both them trash compared to him. ' '''He went to full power before the start of battles against both them. And he still can't perfectly tank either one of them. Vegeta has a similar semi tank over each of them after allowing them a free shot. There is no reason to assume he (Vegeta) was at any less than full power, because he (from the time he fought 19 to fighting 18 or from the fight with Semi Perfect Cell to fighting Perfect Cell) didn't do any major power ups 'in these two respective time periods. ' '''So we can determine Vegeta was at full power in both fights, even though he was equally nonchalant in both battles. Surpressed or not, 19 could be a 3-fold gap like raditz was to Goku. Semi Perfect Cell on the other hand couldn't be a 3-fold gap. Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:46, February 5, 2013 (UTC) ^^^^ No way. I don't see how 19 vs. Vegeta can possibly be a 3x gap: ' '''Not only did Vegeta's head move when he was hit by 19, his lip was bleeding as well. Same thing happened when Semi Perfect Cell punched ASSJ Vegeta. If he can get a small cut just by getting punched in the face, then he can't block a big ki blast from 19, let alone a 2.5x amplifier like the Kamehamea. That's two things that didn't happen when 16 punched Cell. In fact I could argue the gap between Cell and 16 is no less than 2x. Even with a two times advantage I would doubt Cell would take a direct Kamehameha without a little. ' '16 to Semi Perfect gap >> SSJ Vegeta to 19 gap. ' '''The gap between 16 and Cell is 2x IMO. As long that fact is clear, there is no 3x advantage over 19 for SSJ Vegeta. If he was 3x stronger, we'd be seeing clear signs of that. 100% Frieza 100% Frieza = Base Fourth Frieza x 10 so his power needs to be added as 1,500,000,000. 07:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Where did you get that info? Ssj Goku was 150 million and beat his full power.Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:50, February 7, 2013 (UTC) *Im wrong, 100% Frieza is Frieza x2, at that time Frieza had a power of 60,000,000 and it doubled to 120,000,000. But in Multiverse he has 120,000,000 at base, so 100% = 240,000,000. And dont tell me that he never trained, he did, since the first time Cooler went fifth form was in the movie but here he can already do it, and King Cold trained to control his Fourth Form, so max Frieza = 240,000,000. 08:33, February 8, 2013 (UTC) Actually, Frieza's 100% is 120,000,000. His "base" form is 60,000,000. There are official power level guides that state so. And no, he never trained. The DBM manga itself states it. 17:56, February 8, 2013 (UTC) Nappa I reduced Nappa under Frieza. Happy? Zendarmanitan (talk) 23:41, February 8, 2013 (UTC)